joeisbadassFeatured By OwnerApr 27, 2014Hobbyist General Artist
Some Christians do, some do not. Now imagine what would happen a decade or so after religion was wiped out
Dictators would come into power and establish personality cults
Lots more wars would happen in the name of political ideology to replace wars that happen because of religion
People have no concrete moral guidance, and no sense of faith or hope for humanity because they had lost their god, so they have nothing to turn to except the corrupt politicians causing the wars in the first place
Don't believe me? Just look to communism (which was founded by Karl Marx, one of the 'great' atheist minds you have up there), fascism, and imperialism throughout history. Tens of millions of deaths happened from communism alone and none of those genocides have had anything to do with religion.
Your view of humanity saddens me. Maybe as a young species we needed religion to comprehend the world. But as the modern world stands, we would lose nothing if religion dissipated. People have morality through empathy and benefit, we understand right from wrong through experience and education. Concrete moral "guidance" only leads to hatred, it only leads to bigotry. Any religion that has dominated a society has committed atrocities and yet, in secular society there has been none. Dogma is dangerous, the only faith I need is in knowledge and perseverance as a species. By the way, Hitler was a Catholic. And none of the atrocities caused by Communism come close to the death tolls brought on by religion, specifically Christianity and Islam, feel free to google the Islamic expansion and then the crusades, the inquisition and witch burning. Say what you will about humanity, but it has committed more sins in the name of "God" than in spite of him.
joeisbadassFeatured By OwnerSep 26, 2014Hobbyist General Artist
I actually have done some extent of research regarding death tolls and I can tell you that communism has been accounted for far more deaths in just a century than muslims and christians combined death tolls in half a millennium. Mao Zedong alone killed at least 50,000,000 people, and yet the most infamous genocide committed by Christians, the Spanish Inquisition, combined with the most infamous war involving Christians and Muslims, the Crusade-Sarasan conflict amounts to about 3 million. www.strangenotions.com/spanish…www.newworldencyclopedia.org/e…www.independent.co.uk/arts-ent… I'm not gonna disagree with you that dogma is dangerous, but so is socialism, capitalism, nationalism, internationalism, and yes, atheism too. All the mentioned things though, can cause great good as well. Capitalism has been known to cause great harm to the environment, but it also builds our houses and makes our food. Socialism led to the dictatorships of the Soviet Union and Maoist China but it's also what created the first unions. Similarly, religion has been known to breed holy wars and bigotry against gays, women, and people who don't follow one's own religion, but then, since ancient times science and cooperation with the natural world has been and still is endorsed by many religions (especially the eastern religions, pagan religions, and islam), and many charities are driven by religion including the most effective one (the Roman Catholic Church). While it is true that places like Sweden and Norway are highly secularized and have seen much peace, it's also true that their military and their economy isn't impressive enough to receive any threat, so response to such threat wouldn't be necessary (in contrast to Israel, America, and South Korea, who either have very powerful economies and militaries, live right by countries that hate them, or both). The basic point I'm trying to get at though is that society usually looks to either religion or government for moral guidance in addition to survival-related morals. Because Sweden and Norway are both democracies, and because they have a past as a christian nation their drawing of morals from their government is weaker than say, Cambodia, who's Khmer Rouge killed about 3 million people largely because of the party's anti-religious sentiment. A country without religion is one thing, but a world without it may very likely result in a rise in dictatorships worldwide and to say otherwise is purely utopian. BTW Hitler was a heavy critic of the Roman Catholic Church, and he likely executed christians and atheists alike so whatever his religious mentality was is irrelevant to what he did as a leader.
The Soviet Union, Khmer Rogue and Maoist China may have resented religion, but they certainly enjoyed dogma. They were not examples of atheist leadership; they were people who made themselves gods in their own religion. As for the Catholic church, it for the longest time was more than happy to kill anyone who did not follow it's customs, and still today it lives within the golden halls of the Vatican, whilst telling African nations that contraception is evil. The problem with religion is that it is out of touch with the modern world. They are no longer the sources of truth or leadership and so they don't know what to do with themselves. Islam has taken to violence in the hope of one day conquering the world whilst Christianity has somewhat pacified itself to fit in with secular humanism. These mythologies are relics of an age where conquest was virtuous and criticism was punishable by death.
Religion even today separates entire groups of people, pitting them against one another for the minds of mankind. Religion has always been a leading cause of war throughout all of human history and at it's core it is nothing more than a means of controlling people. The men who wrote the "holy" texts knew it wasn't real, they counted on everyone else being ignorant enough to believe them. But we do not live in a world of ignorance any more. We see religion for what it is, if you disagree with that fine. If you wanna be religious, fine. But when your religion begins trying to shape society to its sensibilities, that is when it becomes a threat to mankind. You and I have never lived in a Theocracy, but it was easily one of the most repressive and vicious forms of governance imaginable. Religion can only be tolerated as long as it is controlled by an impartial secular governance, I hope that one day individuals discover they don't need fantasy to give their life meaning.
How would a world without religion be filled with dictatorships? What do you think the church was back in the 14th century? Religions are dictatorships when not moderated. These mythologies have endowed countless tyrants to rule over ignorant masses since the beginning of human history and only now are we breaking free of it.
You know what I think a world in which religion disappeared tomorrow would be like? It would be the same chaotic world it is right now, the only difference would be that people would have to find their own meanings in life, they would have to learn about the world in order to gain fulfillment. The people would have to start thinking for themselves which can only ultimately lead to a more skeptical humanity, a humanity more likely to see lies for what they are and to rally for the observable real truths of the world. To quote Charlie Chaplin, "A world where science and progress would lead to all men's happiness." A world without bigotry or hatred based on fantasy. A world without fundamentalism in fantasy and a world in which conflicts would not hinge on the presumed existence of a fairy tale.
It's not Utopia, but it's better than a world ruled by men who believe in mystical nonsense to govern the lives of rational reasonable people.
joeisbadassFeatured By OwnerApr 27, 2014Hobbyist General Artist
"Marxism was founded by Karl Marx. Communism was a sort of innovation. Marx was on the right track, but he didn't account for human corruption."
Which is something religion does take into account. Interesting how communism, which doesn't address, has harbored three genocides with a combined death count of around 100 million, collected in just a few decades, and religions, which have also killed millions of people, but taking much longer, thousands of years.
Now, given those statistics, let's now imagine a world with communism as the replacement of religion:
Three hundred years pass, humanity goes extinct.
And Pol Pot was an atheist
Hitler was just a monster. I don't know what he was beside that. He killed anyone and everyone that stood in the way of his sick, aryan philosophy, and that included atheists, christians (probably), jews, gypsies, negros, communists, and probably even anyone within his own regime who had enough humanity within them to do some criticisms.
Church burnings and numerous killings by anti-religious, atheistic black metal musicians all through the 1900s and early 2000s Che Guevara executions in La Cabana Holdomor in the Ukraine North Korea starvations and executions
etc., etc., etc.
And yes, politics does have to do with this, because you're making the point that there would be less war without religion when in fact they're wouldn't be because humanity just wars and wars and wars and looks for any excuse it can to continue wars. Getting rid of religion just means humans will find new excuses, and the evidence for that is that the collective deathcount for politics overall seems in fact to be much larger than the collective deathcount for religions.
"I just want people to be good because they can, not because they were told." I agree. I think it's unfortunate some (perhaps even many) among the religious community seem to do good just because they want to go to heaven or don't want to burn in hell. You should do good because it's the right thing to do. Many religious however, I think do do good because it's the right thing to do. You think the saints got recognized because they were only interested in going to heaven? You think such selfless individuals would at all think about what they would get after they've devoted their lives to helping the poor and sick, something the liberal left seems to want to do all the time?
And when I said "no faith for humanity" I meant they have had nothing to turn toward and no sense of purpose in life, when in fact, millions are starving and hundreds executed by the atheist regimes I already told you about.
A little illumination and things i want to say with no hard feelings. 1st Albert Einstein did not believe in the biblical God, not that God didn't exist at all. He was firmly convinced He did. 2nd I don't know all the other guys. 3rd There's a bigger list of geniouses who were actually christians, or at least believed in God (huge difference!), like for example the fathers of science like Isaac Newton, Kepler, Pasteur and others... 4th In a purely materialistic universe which is the only escape for atheism there can exist no such a notion as order, meaning, beauty, justice, good or evil. It's a fact they do and are not just a construct of the human brain. 5th I became a christian, was a fiery christian for 1 year, an extreme doubter the second, and now I firmly believe. I hardly slept for a whole year, even had health issues because of it, all to the goal of reading, watching, thinking, examining what science said, what today's scientists actually do not say, except if asked and it all lead to the point of realization that the idea "God doesn't exist or if such a thing does exist it isn't the God of the Bible" is against -first of all- logic and then - evidence. And thank God atheists are wrong, because God is GREAT! VERY IMPORTANT: After I realized intellectually that God existed, with my heart I could not accept it, so without realizing I just don't want to obey God, I just thought I need more evidence. And no - I just didn't want to obey God. But when I got to know Him I understood that anything that lead to me disliking God or what the Bible says is just NOT TRUE! HE IS GREAT!
Love all of you atheists! I understand you, although everyone's disbelief is unique and I want to ask you to just be honest in your thinking.
And what are we without Him? Check the differences between a society which reveres the Bible and one that does not. You will find that a nation's wellbeing is interestingly paralel to it's attitute towards the Bible. It's a quote from Johann Wolfgang von Goethe.
Nice collage. I hate how some people argue that atheism is wrong just because murderers like Hitler or Stalin were atheists. I suppose the same people think that breathing is wrong just because Hitler and Stalin did that too
Communist fuckers results into the destroying machines and enemy of God ! The reapers of the human soul .
The real way - We believe that the phenomena of nature Are the expression of infinitive intelligence We express our belief that all forms of life Are manifestations of spirit And thus, all men are children of God
Contradictory accounts exist about Adolf Hitler's religious views. Of course, he could have made all that stuff up to get more influence and power. Various scholars believe that he was a deist, or atheist. The point is, his actions determine that he was not Christian. A Christian is somebody of action, not just someone who says, "I believe". Hitler's actions prove he is not Christian.
So you're redefining things to suit your own argument.
Christianity is a set of beliefs. It is not a lifestyle or set of "actions."
What matters is whether or not the atrocities he committed where in the name of Atheism. It is more likely he committed them in the name of Christianity, and here's why:
On April 12th, 1922, he gave this in a speech:
"And today people are saying yet again that we were 'agitators.' I would like here to appeal to a greater than I, Count Lerchenfeld. He said in the last session of the Landtag that his feeling 'as a man and a Christian' prevented him from being an anti-Semite. I SAY: MY FEELING AS A CHRISTIAN POINTS ME TO MY LORD AND SAVIOUR AS A FIGHTER. IT POINTS ME TO THE MAN WHO ONCE IN LONELINESS, SURROUNDED ONLY BY A FEW FOLLOWERS, RECOGNIZED THESE JEWS FOR WHAT THEY WERE AND SUMMONED MEN TO THE FIGHT AGAINST THEM AND WHO, GOD'S TRUTH! WAS GREATEST NOT AS SUFFERER BUT AS FIGHTER. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and of adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison."
"As long as leadership from above was not lacking, the people fulfilled their duty and obligation overwhelmingly. Whether Protestant pastor or Catholic priest, both together and particularly at the first flare, there really existed in both camps but a single holy German Reich, for whose existence and future each man turned to his own heaven. "
Source: Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 3
"And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary, He drove those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God; because then, as always, they used religion as a means of advancing their commercial interests. But at that time Christ was nailed to the Cross for his attitude towards the Jews; whereas our modern Christians enter into party politics and when elections are being held they debase themselves to beg for Jewish votes. They even enter into political intrigues with the atheistic Jewish parties against the interests of their own Christian nation. "
Source: Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 11
"In the same way, the Government of the Reich, which regards Christianity as the unshakable foundation of the morals and moral code of the nation, attaches the greatest value to friendly relations with the Holy See, and is endeavoring to develop them. We feel sympathy for our brother nation in Austria in its trouble and distress. In all their doings the Government of the Reich is conscious of the connection between the destiny of all German races. Their attitude toward the other foreign Powers may be gathered from what has already been said. But even in cases where our mutual relations are encumbered with difficulties, we shall endeavor to arrive at a settlement. But in any case the basis for an understanding can never be the distinction between victor and vanquished."
"So you're redefining things to suit your own argument.
Christianity is a set of beliefs. It is not a lifestyle or set of "actions.""
I am not, but you are, whether intentionally or not, putting words in my mouth.
I said he's not a Christian. I didn't say he's not Christianity. Christianity is a set of beliefs. A Christian is one who follows the beliefs of Christianity, or Jesus Christ, in one way or another. One can just say, "I believe!" but that contradicts the things Christ said, the very Being said "Christian" claims to believe in or follow. Jesus Christ told His followers to follow Him and to keep His commandments. He didn't say, "Yeah, just believe I'm super special and you're bound for Heaven." Get what I'm saying?
"Shows that you just have a confirmation bias."
Please explain to me how, because it doesn't look anything like that. X)
And as you put well, it really doesn't matter if he was a Christian or not. He could be a Jew, an atheist, a Democrat, etc., but his ACTIONS, the things he actually DID, contradict all of the philosophies of those ideologies. Granted, atheism is just the belief that there are no deities, but even if he was an atheist it wouldn't really matter.
If Hilter really considered himself a good Christian, then perhaps the Greek to German Bible translations didn't fit his own confirmation bias. XD